On my LDSFAQ page on science and Mormon beliefs, I have discussed the issue of Noah’s flood and offered my personal view – shared by many LDS people – that the flood must have been a local flood. But even reducing the scope of the flood to local rather than global proportions leaves many questions unanswered, including the question of where any evidence can be found for such a major flood. But Mike Parker recently posted a link to an insightful article that may offer a possible answer. I recommend that you read “Noah’s Flood: Modern Scholarship and Mormon Traditions” by Duane E. Jeffery, Sunstone, Oct. 2004, pp. 27-45. According to one hypothesis currently being explored, the regions that were wiped out by Noah’s flood may presently still be underwater and unexplored in the region that is now the Black Sea. Preliminary evidence points to the possibility of a massive flood around 5600 B.C. as breach of the Bosporus land bridge allowed waters from the Mediterranean Sea to flood the area, expanding a small ancient freshwater lake into the present Black Sea. If evidence of flooded cities under the Black Sea is found, the hypothesis will become more interesting.
The Flood and the Black Sea
If Adam lived in what is now the Northern part of the Western Hemisphere, I wonder if we can assume that all or most of his descendants through Noah also lived in the general area.
If so, did the flood somehow carry Noah from the Western Hemisphere to the Middle East?
I wonder what is meant by the phrase “in his days was the earth divided” in Genesis 10:25, in reference to Peleg, who was 4 generations descended from Shem. Could that have been the separation of the Western Hemisphere from Europe and Africa?
Wouldn’t it be cool to get a “Genesis Commentary” direct from Moses?
Indy,
It would seem to me that Noah would have been carried during the Flood from the Western to Eastern hemispheres. The Genesis account indicates he was on the ark over a year; this is more than enough time to make the journey.
The division in Genesis 10:25 is a cultural division, i.e. a separation of peoples based on shared languages and belief systems. A movement of the earth’s tectonic plates of only a few feet causes massive earthquakes; a separation of hemispheres in as short a time as you suggest would have ripped the earth apart.
Mike, with every living thing having drowned (except sea creatures, I presume) and Noah floating safely on top of the water, a flood would have been the perfect time for the tectonic plates to separate, if indeed that was the case.
I can’t put my finger on it, but isn’t there a scripture that says that at one time all the land on earth was in one land-mass?
In a couple places, scriptures say that the mountains will flow down, valleys will be made level, and all the land will be gathered into one place at the Lord’s second coming. Maybe the phrase “as it was in the beginning” is in there somewhere, and that implies that land was all in one land mass in the beginning.
When I read that, I was a little sad at thinking we’re going to lose all the beautiful mountains and valleys, and lose a lot of shore line.
The reference is Genesis 10:25– “And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother’s name was Joktan,” or 1 Chronicles 1:19–“And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother’s name was Joktan.”
However, the interpretation you give to “the earth was divided” is certainly not the only one. Some suppose that the division was a more basic one, such as a political division, or something else. Many find it difficult to believe that the entire separation of the continents took place so suddenly, in the lifetime of one man.
By the way, my apologies for being somewhat repetitive of the material already found in the first and second comments. I was writing a response the the third comment without reading as thoroughly as I should have.
Indy,
Whether the plates are submerged or not makes no difference — when they move even slightly, huge disasters occur (witness the underwater earthquake and resulting tsunami last year in the Indian Ocean). For the South American and African continents to be separated during the lifetime of a single person (Peleg), the required tectonic forces would disintegrate the earth. In other words, it just isn’t possible according to the laws of physics.
The scriptural references to the mountains flowing down (Isa 64:1), valleys being exalted (Isa 40:4), etc., are allegorical, similar to D&C 128:23’s call for the valleys to cry aloud, the trees to praise the Lord, and the rocks to weep for joy. One of the common errors made by us westerners to is to read the highly metaphorical writings of orientals (like Isaiah and the Revelation of John) and interpret them literally.
There are some more clear verses on what is ment by “the earth was divided. In the Doctrine and Covenants(D&C 133: 23-24)
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/133/23#23
Thanks David, that’s what I was trying to think of.
I’m thinking that the tectonic plates shifted during the _flood_ and that the division in Peleg’s day was something else.
From DC 133:
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming• of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
20 For behold, he shall stand• upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter• his voice out of Zion•, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice• shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice• of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder•, which shall break• down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands• shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided•.
Again, there are several ways to interpret that passage. The most literal reading is not necessarily the correct one.
Then again, it’s not entirely out of the realm of God’s powers to have flooded the whole earth. There is still the interesting story of a large vessel of some sort possibly buried in ice on Mt. Ararat.
I also have to wonder, if it was just a localized flood, then why did God command Noah to collect all those animals? I am not trying to debunk the theory that the flood was localized, it probably was, but I think it was probably on a much grander scale than the word “local” seems to suggest.
Mike, the plates being submerged, and the only surviving humans floating at the surface in open ocean (not a continental shelf) makes a big difference.
Perhaps the division of the continents occurred during the flood, and the division during Peleg’s life was some other kind of division.
The periods of tsunami waves are large, like 30 minutes. It is said that passengers aboard ships at sea can’t tell (without sophisticated equipment) that a tsunami wave just passed under them, because you have 15 minutes from crest to trough.
The crust of the earth’s surface which comprises the tectonic plates is relatively thin compared to the total volume of the earth. The magma underneath the plates is fluid and is a sea upon which the plates float. Lots can happen on the surface without seriously deforming the ball of magma underneath.
Another possibility is that the arrangements of the continents and tectonic plates could have been pre-Genesis.
Joseph Smith is reputed to have said that this planet was put together with fragments or pieces of a pre-existing planet. (We’ve had this conversation before.)
When Jehovah said in Abraham 3:24 “and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;” I think he was referring to materials that were from a pre-existing planet that was ready to be recycled, or re-made into a planet for _us_.
Perhaps the “beginning” of this earth, as described in Genesis, was not with virgin never-before-used planetary material, but was with “recycled” planetary material.
I think the point described as “in the beginning” in Genesis starts with the “materials” that were ready to be recycled. And that traces of those previous creations were not entirely wiped out, which could explain the fossil and geological record being millions of years older than what Genesis can account for.
Maybe we’ll learn the real story in Planet Building 101 in the next life.
Indy,
You are, of course, free to believe anything you wish. But it seems to me that you have to jump through improbable hoop after improbable hoop to arrive at the conclusions you do.
I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying about plate tectonics. The sea floor under the Atlantic Ocean is made up material that has come up from beneath the earth’s surface — the South American and African plates are moving away from each other, while other plates are submerging beneath each other (it’s a three-dimensional process, not just a two-dimensional one). The distance between South America and Africa has appeared over hundreds of millions of years; to exact the same results in a short period of time (only dozens or hundreds of years) would require so much force that the earth — the entire globe — would be torn apart and end up as rubble floating in space.
Your theory of the earth being assembled from chunks of other planets doesn’t fly either. The fossil record appears in layers, with simpler organisms down deep, and higher layers having more complex organisms. This is true around the world, with the same layers showing the same types of organisms. This indicates that these fossils were placed there uniformly, over a long period of time. A world assembled from bits and pieces of other worlds would have different fossil types appearing randomly at different layers.
At no time anywhere have I ever heard from any teacher in Church that the flood was anything but global and that the Bible tells the literal story of Noah. No missionary that I know of has ever taught that the flood was not global. I had several discussions on my misssion with other missionaries and they all agreed. The flood was global and it was the babtisim of the earth by water.
BOMII, some of the things you are suggesting fly in the face of science and geology as we know it. Of course you could just say, Well God can do anything he wants. But that would certainly not help furthur any discussion on topics such as these.
Shadow Spawn: “I also have to wonder, if it was just a localized flood, then why did God command Noah to collect all those animals? I am not trying to debunk the theory that the flood was localized, it probably was, but I think it was probably on a much grander scale than the word “local” seems to suggest.”
I was wondering when someone would finally get to that point…lol.
LDS leadership have repeatedly endorsed the concept that the flood was worldwide. Many symbolisms have been taught such as the Earth having need of baptism, both by water and fire. Of course the water part is by immersion.
Ham is supposed to be the route which the the seed of Cain survive.
Also, Genesis, aka canonized scripture, the gold standard, what have you cleary describes a worldwide devastation, ie; last eight people, mountain tops covered etc…
I don’t think I have to go into detail about the argument for a literal flood, I’m sure you’re all familiar with it.
But I wanted to ask you all a question:
If it’s not okay to subscribe to Genesis and thus the Bible as being literally interpreted and historical, why isn’t it then okay to believe the Book of Mormon too is not historical?
Canon is canon right?
BYU Alter: Just because parts of Genesis may not be literal to a 20th Century mind-set, doesn’t mean it’s not historical. That’s a pretty big jump.
Whether the flood was universal or localized has no bearing on whether there was actually a flood or a Noah.
If parts of the Book of Mormon are not literal, that actually adds credence to it, because many of the arguments against the historicity of the BoM require a literal interpretation of it
First, a few generalities (please be patient).
It’s good and useful to look at these passages of scripture and try to reconcile them with scientific knowledge. But in the absence of further revelation, ultimately we’re still just guessing.
I believe that there is much we don’t yet know in the scientific world, and also much we don’t yet know about the true meaning of the scriptures (as well as the gaps left in the scriptures). I also believe that when we do have all knowledge, we will see where we were wrong in both areas and all the truths, learned by study and also by faith, will harmonize. But for the time being, we shouldn’t overestimate our ability to figure these things out through guesswork.
Now to get a little more specific:
Many posters insist that since current scientific knowledge doesn’t support the possibility of a worldwide flood, or of a rapid division of the continents, some other more scientifically acceptable interpretation of these passages MUST be correct. Other posters seem to insist that since the scriptures are scripture, the science must simply be wrong. I think neither position is a very defensible one.
We should remember that God works miracles. In other words, he does things we don’t understand and can’t explain scientifically. That doesn’t mean they VIOLATE the laws of nature or science. But it must at least mean that they conform to those laws in ways we don’t understand.
So what we know about the consequences of tectonic shifts doesn’t lead inevitably to the conclusion that God couldn’t cause one to happen in a way we don’t yet understand through science, that wouldn’t cause the calamities normally associated with such shifts. What we know about floods doesn’t preclude the greatest Scientist of all from bringing about a worldwide flood in a way we don’t understand.
On the other hand, the fact that scriptures contain mistakes (see Book of Mormon Title Page as well as the Articles of Faith) means that some of what we read is probably not historically true. That’s all right, because its value as scripture is not always the same as its value as history. So the fact that the scriptures say something happened, or even say it happened in a certain way, doesn’t always have to mean that those details are fully accurate. And it doesn’t mean we’re losing faith if we muse or speculate about possible reconciliations of science and scripture that include some scriptural error.
I know I’m not saying anything earth-shaking or new for most of those who are reading. But I think we ought to be a lot less cocksure about categorically stating that, for example, Peleg’s division was definitely a political/cultural division rather than a physical one, or vice-versa. All we can really do is keep studying these things out in our minds and waiting until the Lord thinks it’s proper to let the real answers come to us.
Mike,
Your assertion that a quick separation of plates would have reduced the earth to rubble floating in space is just as speculative as my belief that it may have happened quickly. My model does not imply the types and direction of forces you apparently think it does.
We don’t really know how Jehovah and others created moons, planets, solar systems and galaxies, or whether they created them out of virgin unorganized elements or recycled (previously organized) elements. But I must assume he/they were able to apply forces on planetary and galactic levels. We are told that the very elements obey his mere word. How that translates into or supercedes “F=ma”, I don’t know. The Lord is not limited to Newtonian physics.
Secondly, I don’t think I said that the earth is made up of more than one previous planet. I wrote that it came from parts (plural) of one previous planet, I.E., a pre-existing planet got recycled with a new beginning.
Anon at 6:29,
Actually, the recycled planet theory tends to resolve the geological and fossil record with the biblical account, suggesting that fossils are the remnants of a previous “creation” upon this sphere. Perhaps those animals lived and died upon this planet, and after all was extinct, that is when the Lord uttered Abraham 3:24.
Otherwise, one is forced to conclude that the 6 periods of creation lasted millions of years, or that Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden for millions of years, in order for the fossil record to be laid down.
I like the following scripture (D&C 101: 32-34) because it hints to us that we can’t fully discover how the earth was created without being taught by God. It also points out that it is important for us to understanding how and why the earth was created. Regardless, I can’t image the Lord creating the Earth in such a way as to deceive us.
32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day• when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal• all things—
33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—
34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.
There’s a scripture that says all things testify of God. Those first 10 or so chapters of Genesis are filled with lots of mysteries. How was the earth created? Where does the ice age fit into the flood story, and the dividing of the earth. Was sea level so low that the continents were connected? Also, after the flood, we see an exponential decline man’s life expectancy. If this is not due to a change in how age was calculated, what happened in nature to change man’s life expectancy?
What I find interesting is geologist’s understanding of cataclysmic events. Until the last 10-20 years mainstream theories were based upon gradual change (uniformitarianism.) Now, they are finding that the earth history is laced with a series of cataclysmic events.
I read a book written 40 years ago that postulated the ice age was caused by an extra-terrestrial ice body being trapped and shattered by the earth’s gravity. The resulting minus 100-150F charged ice particles were attracted to the poles, froze the mammoths and changed the earths’s atmosphere. An interesting theory. I tend to believe something cataclysmic happened to the earth, but doubt the earth was completely flooded. The diversity of man and creatures contradict the extinction of all life except for those one the arc.
BOM INDY: “If parts of the Book of Mormon are not literal, that actually adds credence to it, because many of the arguments against the historicity of the BoM require a literal interpretation of it.”
Indy, something being not literal, not historical makes it fiction. There’s no truth in fiction.
Fiction is pretty easy to defend, you don’t see J.K. Rowling having to explain the physics of flying broomsticks do you?
Books of Mormon in Indy said:
“If parts of the Book of Mormon are not literal, that actually adds credence to it, because many of the arguments against the historicity of the BoM require a literal interpretation of it.”
come again?? Maybe you want to try and untie that pretzel of logic…
One of the arguments against a truely universal flood is the biblical statement that the waters receded. Where could they recede to if literally 100% of the earth’s surface was already covered?
If the flood were universal and lasted for months, would not all the land vegetation have died? And if so, how could the dove have recovered an olive leaf?
A universal flood would require us to assume miraculous intervention to either preserve or restore-to-life flora and fauna that were not on the ark.
Switching models for a moment, let’s assume it really was a literal 100% universal flood, and ask “What circumstances and events would enable a ‘receding of waters’ in the universal flood model?”
A possible answer to that question could be that prior to the flood, the oceans were not as deep as they are now, and the mountains were not as high as they are now. If so, then the oceans were deepened, and mountains were created and/or made taller, i.e., some kind of tectonic upheaval during the flood. If that happened, the waters could have receded to the now-deeper oceans thereby exposing land.
Either model, universal or localized, requires the presence of events that we either have no geological record of, or no biblical record of. Either our scriptural information or our historical/geological knowledge is incomplete, or both.
Bom INDY: “Either model, universal or localized, requires the presence of events that we either have no geological record of, or no biblical record of. Either our scriptural information or our historical/geological knowledge is incomplete, or both.”
Or, the Bible could just be full of tall tales like the BOM.
BYU-Alter:
Things can be figurative and still be true. “Not literal” doesn’t equate to fiction. Where did you get that?
Something can be figurative, I.E., “not literal,” and still be true. Duh.
How often do you use figurative phrases or idioms and still assert their truthfulness? Have you ever asserted someone is “full of excrement”? (um, wording changed to fit blog standards), or “has his head up his butt”? Or “I’ve told you a MILLION times!”
Doesn’t everyone use similar non-literal phrases to convey a true idea or actual event?
Noah’s statement about “all the earth” does not have to be literal as the 20th/21st century mind understands the phrase. It’s already been said that “the whole earth” could still be a true statement in that it was everything that Noah could see with his eyes.
Whether or not Noah’s statements were literal in the 20th/21st century meaning of literal has no bearing on whether or not there was a flood. Is it that hard to understand? “All the earth” = figurative (not literal), but there still was a cataclysmic flood?
See Jeff’s write-up on the Flood at:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/science.shtml#flood
where he illustrates other figurative descriptions in the Bible:
—————————-
“But such language is commonly used figuratively to indicate a significant extent without requiring a literal reading. For example, in Deuteronomy 2:25, as the Lord is commanding Moses to go battle Sihon the Amorite, of Heshbon, the Lord encourages Moses with these words:
‘This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.’
Now should we imagine that the lords of the Olmec empire in southern Mexico would soon be learning of that awesome warrior, Moses, and tremble in fear and anguish? Did the emperor of China lose sleep, worried that Moses and his several thousand warriors might make a surprise thrust across thousands of miles to overthrow his empire?”
—————————-
A literal interpretation of scripture is not always necessary. But it generally is necessary in order for RfM’ers to raise strawmen to attack.
“Or, the Bible could just be full of tall tales like the BOM.”
I hesitate to ask, but what tales in the BoM do you think are false?
Whether the flood was global or local is really secondary to what the Bible says about the gathering of the animals. The Bible is very clear that every animal with the breath of life outside the ark perished. I don’t think there is much dispute about that. Yet, for that to be true, it would mean that every mammal died that was not on the ark. I don’t think people understand the scope of that statement. Have you ever counted how many mammals there are? And you would need at least 2 of each. Don’t forget water and food for a year as well. I once had a Sunday school lesson where the teacher suggested that for this to be true, the ark would have to be the size of the North American Continent. It was amazing to see people come unglued at that suggestion. The whole class errupted in chaos with the arguing and several chairs were sent flying across the room. (I am being literal when I speak of flying chairs here)
BYU-Alter:
Those who deny the divine origin of the Bible are on shaky ground when their attacks are directed solely against one church instead of on Christianity and Judaism as a whole.
If the Bible is full of tall tales…
Uh, wait a second. Did you mean that LITERALLY? 🙂
uh.. back to my point…
Don’t you see the lack of standing and lack of logic that an atheist or agnostic has when attacking no other canon than the Book of Mormon or no other church than the LDS church ?
The Book of Mormon presumes the divine origin of the Bible. The LDS church presumes the existence of a God.
Once one denies the Bible, or denies the existence of God, then all further arguments are superfluous.
Attacking the Book of Mormon or the LDS church, but not their underlying presumptions (Bible/God)is to give credence to those underlying presumptions.
The mere utterance “the Mormons aren’t the true church” itself implies the existence of God.
To pick on the LDS and no other church is to lend credence to the others.
If every Mormon were to renounce the Book of Mormon and the LDS church, and go join other churches, what would you do? Would your job be done? Or would you track us down in those other churches and attack those churches too, until we had all renounced the very existence of God?
What’s your goal? To make everyone an agnostic/atheist? And why us? Why not the Catholics? Are they “stupid” or “deluded” too for believing in God? Are Mormons “more stupid” or “more deluded” than other religions, and that’s what merits attacking our beliefs?
Are all Christians stupid and deluded, but somehow Mormons are worse? Is that why you go after us?
Are members of other churches allowed on the RfM board? What about ex-Mormons who go join other churches? How are they treated on the RfM board? Are they ridiculed for still believing in God, or are they patted on the back for leaving the Mormons?
Agnostics and atheists who speak and work against the Book of Mormon and the LDS church, but against NO other church, are implying all other churches and docrrines are better or “more acceptable” than the LDS church and doctrine. Yet if there is no God, they are just as ‘wrong’ as we are.
I can respect devout and sincere members of other religions who think the Mormons are deluded, and who try to correct us from our allegedly erroneous beliefs. They actually have something good that they believe in, and want to share it, and build it up.
I can respect agnostics and atheists who say they disagree with us and just ask to be left alone.
Those who want to tear down others’ beliefs but have no overarching philosophy with which to replace them, well, I don’t know how to respect them yet.
A great website to visit for more information on this topic is The Institute for Creation Research at icr.org. The website has a wealth of information from HIGHLY qualified, educated scientists in every field who adhere to a literal reading of the Biblical account of the flood. In addition, I like what my father-in-law once told me, “Anytime science and scripture appear to clash it is because science is in error or we do not understand the science through which God causes things to happen.”
A few summary thoughts:
1) Someone claimed that every missionary he knew believed the Flood was global. Someone else claimed that every general authority he ever heard speak on the subject said the Flood was global. My response is just because something is widely believed does not mean it is true. There are many assumptions that we bring to the scriptures that affect how we interpret them. The majority of Christians have believed the Flood to be global, and as they converted to the LDS faith they brought their pre-existing beliefs with them — their fundamentalist spectacles, as it were.
2) Nowhere in scripture is it claimed that the Flood was a “baptism” of the earth. This belief has been advanced by Latter-day Saints as an interpretation without any revelation to back it up.
3) When we read the account of the Flood, we need to keep in mind that it was written thousands of years after the fact, by a people whose scientific understanding of the world was extremely primitive, based on a first-person account of the events (Noah’s). From Noah’s perspective the entire world was flooded and all animal life was destroyed. That doesn’t mean there were places beyond his line of sight that weren’t destroyed.
4) Considering the vast diversity of life on the earth — estimated at ten million macroscopic species — it is simply ludicrous to claim that every land animal came out of a single ship 5000 years ago. The biological uniqueness of such places as Australia simply sinks that theory. (Unless one is willing to claim that God miraculously overcame all the logical and scientific impossibilities in the Flood story.)
5) It is possible for a historical record to contain history that is based on the limited understandings of the writers, and yet is still history. Just because the story of the Flood has been exaggerated by the writers beyond what it really was does not mean that there wasn’t a Noah (or a Moses). And just because the Bible contains some element of allegory, does not mean that it is all allegory. The same applies to the Book of Mormon: Just because Mormon, writing 1000 years after the fact, may have misstated some of the early historical record, doesn’t mean there wasn’t a Lehi or a Nephi. The “all or nothing” approach suggested by BYU-Alter is a fundamentalist reading that requires overly strict interpretation or complete rejection of the text as authentic (a common error on the part of ex-Mormons).
Finally, Jeff encouraged us all to read Duane Jeffery’s Sunstone article, but it doesn’t sound like anyone has. I recommend it before opining any further on this subject.
TO INDY, JEFF, AND MIKE PARKER
The following I have typed verbatim from W. Cleon Skousen’s book, “The First 2,000 Years” I think you both may be interested to read these remarks as he seems to refute many of the statements made in this thread, and he backs it up with scripture and statements from prophets. I offer it for your consideration.
Did the flood cover the entire Earth?
Many students have wondered how such a thing could be possible. Numerous explanations have been given. The important thing to keep in mind, however, is that persons living in that day witnessed the fact that it did occur. In summarizing these events for modern students the Lord himself verifies that it did occur. The scripture could not be much plainer than to say that “all the high hills under the whole heavens were covered. . .and the mountains were covered.” The scriptures indicate that it was not until the tenth month after the commencement of the flood that the tops of the mountains were again seen!43
Some students have assumed that this was just a local flood and have believed that the Bible is merely describing the destruction of life in a “given area.” However, the scriptures clearly refute any such interpretation.
First, the Lord declared that this great Flood would destroy “all flesh from off the earth”44 No local flood would have fulfilled this prediction.
Second, we know from modern scriptures that the Ark was launched from the Western Hemisphere and finally came to rest on a high peak of the Eastern Hemisphere. This would require a world-wide flood.
Third, the Lord has verified the fact that the Flood included the part of the earth which is now America. He made known to Ether that “after the waters had receded from off the face of THIS LAND it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord.”45 Note also that after the Flood it was necessary for the Jaredites to replenish America with animal life by bringing with them “flocks and herds and whatsoever beast or animal of fowl they should carry with them.”46
Fourth, the great Flood is spoken of as the “baptism” of the earth or burial of the earth in water. As Brigham Young declared: “The earth. . .has been baptized with water, and will, in the future be baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, to be prepared to go back into the celestial presence of God.”47 The symbolism of baptism for the earth would require a universal flood. John A. Widtsoe declared: “The Latter-day Saints. . .look upon the Flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.”48
THREE MORE PARAGRAPHS. BEAR WITH ME. VERY VERY WORTH WHILE
How many animals could be accommodated in the Ark? Scientists and scholars have wondered how a single vessel – even as large as the Ark – could have possibly housed enough animals to account for all of the species which now exist on the earth. However, the problem is simplified somewhat as we gain a better knowledge of the laws of heredity and learn that from a single set of parents a great variety of “breeds” or types may eventually be produced.
In this connection one authority states: “The term ‘species’ may be defined as a group of individuals of animals of plants which breed together freely and reproduce fertile offspring; hence all dogs, wolves, coyotes, jackals and dingoes, all of which are inter fertile, needed to have only one pair to represent them in the Ark. The same applied ot the cat family which includes the lions, tigers, pumas. leopards, jaguars, wild cats, ocelots and others. . .”23
Darwin observed the fact that many different types are merely variations of a common ancestor.
23 – A.M. Rehwinkel, the flood, P. 70
43 – Genesis 8:5
44 – Moses 8:30
45 – Ether 13:2
46 – Ether 6:4
47- Brigham Young, October 6, 1863, JD 10:252
48 – John A. Widtsoe, evidences and reconciliation’s, 1:111.
I think Skousen makes a very strong case here guys. Don’t get me wrong. I have total respect for one who strives to see the science behind the scriptures, but I think we can get carried away sometimes to the point where we shoot beyond the simple answer that lies right in front of us in the scriptures. We get involved in discussion of the tectonic plates and what not, when the answer might be simply, God did it. We might not know how, so let’s move on.
Mike P.: All things are possible with God and all things are in His hands. The fact that current scientific understanding (which is ever changing) says one thing does not negate God’s power to do all things, including create the earth, divide the earth, and flood the earth.
You haven’t established the fact that Moses or Noah exaggerated anything in their records. I do not think it is right for you to disparage LDS leaders and members as fundamentalists or primitive thinkers.
Samuel: “I hesitate to ask, but what tales in the BoM do you think are false?”
All of them of course… 🙂
Indy: “Something can be figurative, I.E., ‘not literal,’ and still be true. Duh.”
Figurative: “Expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another with which it may be regarded as analogous : METAPHORICAL”
No, something is figurative when it’s analogous or metaphorical, not true.
True is historical, true are events that actually happened, true are real people, duh.
BOM INDY: “Those who deny the divine origin of the Bible are on shaky ground when their attacks are directed solely against one church instead of on Christianity and Judaism as a whole.”
BYU Alter Ego = Agnostic
See my blog… 🙂
Shadow Spawn: Quoting Cleon Skousen does absolutely nothing for me. Skousen is frequently wrong in his interpretations, and his works have had far, far too much influence over LDS thinking during the last 50 years. He represents a school of thought that requires the most literal interpretation, seen through Western eyes (a school echoed by Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie), and one that is anti-science (i.e., evolution is a fraud, the earth is only 6000 years old, etc.). It’s unfortunate that other LDS voices that accepted scientific discoveries (like James E. Talmage and Henry Eyring) have been subordinated to more fundamentalist thinkers.
Anonymous: It is not my intention to “disparage” LDS leaders. All I’m doing is pointing out the limits of our understanding and the limits of revelation. It is natural to try to correlate one’s understanding of the universe with the scriptural record. In so doing, many Latter-day Saints have come to illogical or incorrect conclusions. That does not mean that some of these people are not called of God to lead His Church; it means they have their own opinions and beliefs, some of which are right, and some of which are wrong. “A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such,” etc.
Yes, it’s possible that God overcame many of the logical and scientific difficulties presented in the Genesis account simply by miracle. It’s possible that the earth is only 6000 years old, that the Flood produced enough water to cover the entire surface of the earth (including Mount Everest), that every species of plant and animal is descended from two ancestors 5000 years ago, etc. But is it logical? Based on the fossil record, carbon dating, and other scientific data, is it not more plausible to say that the early Genesis account represents the best understanding of a primitive people, based on the limited light and knowledge God gave them, and that we now know better today? They weren’t exaggerating anything, they were simply describing the world from their point of view, a point of view that has since been superseded by further light and knowledge.
To me, the message of Genesis is that God created the earth and is the Father of mankind. How he did it is not important; that he did it is.