Black lives matter. Of course they do. Sadly, the pains and sorrows faced by the victims of violence and inhumanity among black Americans is not adequately addressed by slogans and virtue signaling, or by giving support to any group or person that encourages or tolerate violence against blacks. The horror of violence from some bad cops is bad enough, but there is also brutality and inhumanity far more widespread in the violence that permeates too many communities across our country. The lives of those being shot and murdered everyday in largely black neighborhoods across America matter and deserve far more attention and compassion than they have received. Let’s begin with the story of the murder of a young man, Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr., who was murdered in Seattle. The story is told by a man with his heart on fire, a man who has been treated with callous inhumanity by the government in Washington. His story resonates with me, not because I have faced pain anywhere close to his, but because of what happened to him when he wanted to see his son at a hospital.
Watch at least the first 10 minutes of this interview with the father. The interview is part of the story, “Father of CHOP shooting victim speaks out in emotional ‘Hannity’ interview: ‘All I know is my son is dead.’” It was written by Yael Halon on July 1, 2020 for Fox News. The video is an interview of Horace Lorenzo Anderson, Sr. and his friend, Andre Taylor, two remarkable and eloquent men who share perspectives that could help the entire nation move toward healing. They are sharing views aimed at building our future, at bringing our country together, and having more humanity. It’s a healing message in the end and may we all learn from it. But the father’s story may also leave your heart on fire as you realize what terribly inhumanity and stupidity has been heaped upon some precious black lives in our midst.
The inhumanity in this story is found not only by the callous neglect of irresponsible government leaders, blinded by their extremist ideology out of touch with reality, who allowed his son and others to be victimized and even killed without the basic protection of citizens that is the fundamental duty of the leaders of government to provide, the fundamental reason why we have government in the first place, but is also found in the neglect of the grieving father, by a system that did not inform him of his son’s death and even refused to let the grieving father see his son at the hospital. When he went to the hospital that had his dead son, he was not allowed to go in to see his boy and at least confirm that it was really him. He was not given any information about how and when he died. He was turned away in what appears to be an expression of the brutal inhumanity that many of our hospitals have unwittingly adopted in their cruel overreaction to COVID fears.
I can slightly relate to his hospital experience. In June, I visited my 88-year-old father in Salt Lake City and the day before I was to return to Wisconsin, had the opportunity to take him to see a doctor for a check up. She noted that his blood pressure was low, probably due to dehydration from an imbalance in his complicated medications dealing with the many problems he has, so she recommended that he be given an IV for a couple of hours to get him rehydrated and stabilized. For this, I had to take him to the emergency area. While we were chatting, a medical worker came to take him away for his IV, and told me that I could not accompany him due to COVID-19 policies. But he’s be done in about 3 hours, so I could come back then. And no, I could not wait in the waiting room of the emergency area but would have to leave the building and wait in the parking lot or somewhere else. They would call me when he was finished, they said, to let me know when I could come back. I would never get that call. In fact, I have not seen him since that day.
My father is still alive and I shall be going back soon to see him again this month, if all goes well. After giving him an IV, they decided he needed further care and admitted him without letting me know and without giving me a chance to see him and at least say good-bye. He spent several days there and returned home, but in the meantime I had to return home without knowing if I would ever see him again. This hospital and many others refuse to let family members come visit patients due to COVID-19 fears, but surely there are ways to manage that and keep risks low. They could show up in a hazmat suit surrounded by a plastic bubble and still not be allowed to visit a drying relative. Inflexible bureaucratic rules contribute to the inhumanity of the world. A friend of my sister in Salt Lake is grieving over the death of her father who died alone in a Salt Lake City hospital that refused to allow family members to visit her declining father. He was forced to die alone when he could have been surrounded by children who loved him.
These rules that keep family members away have some serious downsides. For a mother delivering a baby, keeping the father away strikes me as not just inhumane but also dangerous. Not only does the mother need that support, and should have the right to have that support during one of the most difficult and painful moments of her life, but for the protection of the baby, it is often vital that the father be there to ensure that the baby is properly cared for, not given unwanted or improper treatments without informed parental consent, not misidentified and confused for another baby later — problems that are highly unlikely but still have happened, making it reasonable that both parents should be there to help watch over their child and reduce the risks of neglect or harm in a world where bad things happen every now and thing. There may also be the need to oversee treatments given to the mother and to help her with needs that medical workers may not be able to do.
Let’s turn back to Mr. Anderson, the grieving father and his son, two black lives that didn’t seem to matter to some aspects of Seattle’s government and health care system. Who shot his son? Why? Is the murdered being pursued? What is known about the crime? Does anyone in Seattle care? Why can’t a father identify the corpse of his murdered son? What COVID fears justify keeping family away from the dead? The father still doesn’t have answers. I suspect that if it weren’t for the interview with Sean Hannity, that man’s voice and his son’s story would be swept under the rug, neglected and ignored because it doesn’t fit the narrative of the Revolution supported by most of our media and their wealthy Silicon Valley friends. And the healing non-political message on the importance of family, love, accountability, and safety in our communities shared by Andre Taylor and Horace Lorenzo Anderson, Sr. would not be heard. God bless these good men.
The son was a victim of a disastrous experiment with chaos and the neglect of black lives and many other lives by callous officials. The failed experiment, of course, was CHOP, the Capitol Hill Organized Protest, formerly known as CHAZ, the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, the lawless region embraced and tolerated by the Governor of Washington and the Mayor of Seattle, where the police were ordered to back down and leave a large swath of downtown Seattle in the hands of chaos since, in the bizarre mindset of those leaders, a community without police would be some kind of “summer of love” utopia with power to the people, vegan snacks to the people, everything to the people. Power to the people, of course, seemed to quickly became power to some of the people with guns, the local thugs with muscle. The extremist ideal of America without borders was quickly replaced with a fence and with guards, keeping out police and making it extremely difficult or impossible to respond to 911 calls. Disaster.
Fortunately, the Seattle Mayor Jenny Durkan, after weeks of actually supporting the experiment in chaos, showed that she does strongly object to lawlessness — but clear action seemed to only come after her own house was surrounded by protesters. But on the day the Horace Lorenzo Anderson was killed, she continued her support and Tweeted that “We have had some incredibly peaceful demonstrations.” In spite of the violence with several being being shot and many others suffering from crimes and living in fear without the protection that should have been provided, she continued her support. James Altucher caught the gist of what happened in this Tweet:
Let’s see: six shootings, two teenage deaths, and @MayorJenny still says “it’s an arts festival”. THEN, the CHAZ threatens to take over her 5,000 sq ft house worth $7.6 million after her new addition. A DAY LATER, she brings in the police, “end the chaos!” #Leadership #Comedy
— James Altucher (@jaltucher) July 1, 2020
After people began to threaten her very expensive home (how do so many public servants manage to get such expensive homes?), action was swift. Those demonstrators were driven out and then the order was given that caused CHOP to come down. Perspectives on the Mayor’s actions are offered by The Federalist and by Jason Rantz. I can sympathize with the Mayor: if a potentially dangerous mob was gathering around my home or my vehicle, for that matter (thinking of the white “peaceful protester” who shot a driver in Provo, Utah recently when a mob surrounded his vehicle at University Avenue and Center Street), I’d be scared and would want the protection of armed police, even though some police are bad people. I’d turn to the police. But that instinct, according to the white women leading the Minneapolis City Council, is just an expression of white privilege. How do so many whites imagine that blacks don’t want that kind of protection also from criminals that might approach them in their home, in a vehicle, or on the street?
Why is it so hard for elite white people to understand that black neighborhoods need and want protection also? I recommend a powerful essay from Charles Love, a black man who has explored what’s up with the “wokeness” that is sweeping some parts of white society. His essay, “White Wokeness: It’s the new factor in our national life,” was published in City Journal on June 25, 2020, and has since been adapted and used in other forums such as the New York Post in “What ‘woke’ whites get wrong about blacks’ priorities,” June 28, 2020. Please read it.
Mr. Love was surprised by what he found and by how seriously wrong perceptions are among woke whites about life for black people in America. Those misguided perceptions are causing more harm than good, he feels, especially with the extreme notion of defunding the police.
As for what folks in Harlem think about the idea of defunding the police in their neighborhood, see Ami Horowitz‘s contrasting interviews of folks in a high-end New York neighborhood and those in Harlem. (I heard an interview of Ami about this survey. Of about 30 people he spoke to one the street in Harlem, all but 1 were clearly supportive of having police. The video only captures a handful.) Where violence is real, scheduling a social worker as a response to emergency 911 calls may not be the answer. We need more compassion, not neglect and virtue signaling, for those who face violence in their neighborhoods. Some can come from bad cops, but the vast majority of police are seeking to protect neighborhoods, not traumatize them.
Two good men in grief over the unnecessary loss of a young boy, a boy born at 25 weeks who struggled with developmental disorders and was among the truly disadvantaged in our society, among those who are most in need of our protection, was neglected and killed, and then his family was neglected as well. There is brutality and inhumanity that needs our national attention. There is also hope if we take action. The many issues involved here are complex, painful, and clearly beyond me in many ways. Still, there are things I think we can to help beyond slogans and fruitless anger.
For members of my faith and who are asked to be “ministering brothers” and “ministering sisters” to others, along with people of all faiths seeking to do good, this may be a good time to put expand our circles of influence and to minister as friends and neighbors more broadly. Looking to the example of Christ and others in the scriptures, the concept of ministering in all its forms can help us to reach out more to those around us, regardless of color and regardless of religion. There are too many who are neglected and too many without enough friends to help in times of trouble. Single parents with special needs children have overwhelming burdens and when things go wrong, face overwhelming pain. Staying close to them can make a huge difference.
For the millions in need with burdens of all kinds, I fear that big bureaucratic programs driven by failed ideologies aren’t going to help, but loving neighbors and friends often can. Local government leaders also can if they fulfill their duties to protect their citizens and work for police reform and accountability but not the elimination of protection that is so desperately needed in high-crime neighborhoods. Health care leaders can when they fight to make sure their programs and policies are humane and loving (some institutions and especially many health care workers individually do inspiring work in this regard), and to make sure that grieving family members are not coldly turned away when they need to see a boy who has been shot, or when a family member needs support. Citizens can also help by simply standing up to oppose dereliction and insanity from local government and demanding that resources be increased to aggressively promote safety in high-crime areas and that violence not be ignored. The children, the teenagers, the young people and old who are dying from violence deserve attention. Those lives matter, too, and need our help, not our neglect. I also offer my opinion that we must oppose some of the insane ideas from privileged politicians who may have armed guards and live in secure gated communities and yet claim that turning the security of poor neighborhoods over to local gangs and occasional social workers will bring utopia. It’s time to care more, to love more, and to stand up for sanity. We can do this.
It must have been so much easier when one could simply dismiss black people’s ill-treatment as a divine curse.
— OK
One of the foundational truths of the Gospel can, when properly digested, help all of us overcome the selfish tendency to look down as those not part of our group. Bias related to race, nationality, political affiliation, religion, etc., is hard to sustain when reading and carefully pondering these words of Nephi:
[God] doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. (2 Nephi 26:33 in the Book of Mormon)
The Nephites still had trouble with racism and national bigotry, as have most societies and certainly Latter-day Saints, both before 1978 and still to this day as we remain imperfect and in need of ongoing growth and repentance. We are repenting and have more repenting to do, but as we learn the teachings of Jesus Christ, a fundamental truth is reinforced in so many ways: we are all children of God, and He has provided a way for all to receive of His richest blessings and greatest joy. Not just Americans, not just whites, not just those who were lucky enough to be born in a Christian country, not just those who were born after Christ came, but ALL of mankind will be treated fairly and be given a chance to receive and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Knowing that is just the beginning. Understanding the humanity of others who suffer abuse, poverty, crime, genocide, and endless trouble in so many places must move us to do more, to love more, to not abandon them. For every Horace Lorenzo Anderson, Jr. who was abandoned by callous politicians, whose father was denied information and even the right to see his deceased son by an uncaring bureaucracy, who violently torn away from his family in this terrible and needless way, there are many others we never hear about and more to come unless we can better help. There is a great need to reform our systems and increase the compassion of our leaders so that black lives as well as Hmong lives (if you want to talk to many people whose family members literally have been hunted down and killed in genocidal hysteria, talk to some of my Hmong friends!), Mexican lives, Iranian lives, and others in our cities and states can be better protected, better helped, better loved. To think that taking away the protection they depend on will make them better off, and to make that decision without relying on input from them, is disastrous arrogance.
Glad to hear about all the repenting and stuff, Jeff, and I think we can all admire the idea expressed by Nephi. It’s a lot better than the racist Hamitic theory found in the books of Abraham and Moses.
I was wondering, though, why someone like Nephi, an Israelite writing in ancient America, would juxtapose “black and white, bond and free.” That sure sounds a lot like the language of the antebellum United States!
— OK
More Caucasians are killed by police than any other race.
An 8 year old Black girl was killed by the anarchist thugs of Black Lives Matter in Chitcago. The dead girl was with her mother going to a store. The BLM anarchist thugs were not happy that the Black female driver would not bow to their demands,so they shot up the car killing the girl.
The Communist Democrats saw the opportunity to "never let a crisis go to waste"…..they used the death of George Floyd who was full of alcohol, meth and fentanyl along with horrible cardiovascular health to launch their Communist revolution.
AntiFa is also a Communist organization.
Black lives do not matter to the Black anarchists and AntiFa. It is a slogan to achieve legitimacy to riot, loot, burn, murder, ignore the Rule of Law and make Caucasians and Christians the Jews of the 21st Century. Democrats are protecting and funding them as are NGOs and Moslem terrorist groups. And too many so called Republican politicians are also supporting the anarchy…..like that corrupt SOB Mittens Romney.
Democrats are the party of slavery, KKK, Jim Crow laws, segregation.
President LBJ and the Democrats started the destruction of Black families and life in general for Blacks.
The corrupt politicians from federal government to state governments has brought the country to this destruction… because the People elected an outsider. How dare the people choose the President….how dare the President make decisions….the unelected bureaucrats are supposed to control the USA…..a few people that have testified to the corrupt Congress and Senate actually said that the President has no right to govern and make decisions!!!
Now that the mainstream media has become the official whore propaganda outlet of the Communist Democrats, and has been for some time, the evil Commie Dems have been able to divide and are trying to conquer.
Actually, these sentiments — black or white, bond or free — are found close together in Tyndale's 1533 translation of Erasmus of Rotterdam's Enchiridion militis Christiani (1503). So the ideas and expressions were around in the 15c and perhaps earlier.
"More Caucasians are killed by police than any other race."
That's because 76% of the population is white.
But blacks commit crime at disproportionately high rates. Even black cops are sensitive to this. Because human psychology is what it is, this leads to persistent, occasional abuse / overreaction by law enforcement, no matter the race of the cops. This is being used to impose Marxist ideology on the populace, which can only lead to misery and death on a large scale, caused by the gov't.
"It must have been so much easier when one could simply dismiss black people’s ill-treatment as a divine curse."
Within the LDS church, the divine curse mentality of black skin has been the result of cultural prejudice and naive misreadings of scripture. The Canaanites, a Semitic people, are known not to have had 'black' skin. The blackness mentioned in Moses 7:8 is contextually paired with heat and geographical barrenness, so the most likely reading is sun exposure causing the "blackness", which should be read, because of the nature of this scriptural language, with a typical earlier meaning of "little darker than many Europeans" (OED, def. 1c).
Outside the LDS tradition, political / academic motivations lead to deliberately skewed readings, as exemplified by OK's frequent prejudiced comments.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Hey, anon @3:56, thanks proving anon @1:04 right.
Hey anon @7:32, you can shove it too.
Anon 7:46 writes, “these sentiments — black or white, bond or free — are found close together in Tyndale's 1533 translation of Erasmus of Rotterdam's Enchiridion militis Christiani (1503).”
“Close together”?
A quick word search of this text turns up one usage of the phrase “black or white,” which is separated by some 82 lines of text (about 800 words) from the one usage of ”bond or free.”
When someone writes “black and white, bond and free” — yoking the four key terms together in a single, parallel-structured phrase — one is implicitly associating blackness with bondness, whiteness with freedom, an association that would come easily to a 19th-century American. This is not the case with Tyndale, since the terms are so widely separated in the text. This all makes sense, since the racist ideology holding black skin to be a divine curse justifying bondage was developed long after 1533. It was a part of Smith’s conceptual repertoire but not Tyndale’s.
In any event, the idea that Smith borrowed phrasing introduced in the 1500s hardly helps make the case that the BoM is ancient.
Let’s all remember one of the key sophistries of LDS apologetics: when confronted with obvious evidence of the LDS scriptures’ modern origins, the apologist will ransack the archive for something that, if one doesn’t think about it too much, can kinda sorta serve as a refutation. We see variants of this not just with Jeff but also with Carmack, Stubbs, Gee, etc.
— OK
We can see another example of white or black, bond or free in another Erasmus text translated/published in 1529. Less than 200 words apart. In other words, the phraseology expresses somewhat timeless or universal human sentiments.
Well alright then, Anon 9:43. A Dutch humanist, writing 2,000 years after Nephi, used those two phrases within *200* words of each other. It still seems much, much more reasonable to imagine a line of transmission of this construction from Erasmus to Smith than from Nephi to Smith — that is, it still sounds much more like modern than ancient writing — so I’m not sure what your argument is. And while yes, some sentiments are indeed “somewhat universal,” the exact phrases used to express those sentiments generally are not. Maybe Erasmus introduced the phrases into our discourse, and then his many intellectual descendants kept it alive over the centuries for Smith to pick up in 1829. That’s *way* less speculative than Jeff’s musings about goggles and skulls.
— OK
Jeff, in a reply above you wrote something that strikes me as extremely problematic in light of the Church’s practices and theology:
Bias related to race, nationality, political affiliation, religion, etc., is hard to sustain when reading and carefully pondering these words of Nephi:
“[God] doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”
I have two questions.
(1) How can Nephi’s words be squared with the Church’s race-based priesthood ban? Remember, the Church holds that this ban was not a mistake made by fallible men speaking as men rather than prophets. The Church holds that the ban was indeed ordained by God himself, for reasons known only to him. If this is so, then, for the duration of the ban, black and white were very much *not* “alike unto God.” (Also, if the reasons for the ban are so mysterious, one cannot very well say that “God doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men.”)
(2) How can Nephi’s statement be reconciled with a theology in which God uses religious belief as a basis for segregating people for eternity into three separate-and-decidedly-unequal heavenly kingdoms? Faithful, obedient Mormons live forever in the Celestial Kingdom, while other Christians, and possibly Jews and Muslims, must settle for an eternity in a lesser kingdom. That’s hardly consistent with claim that “all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.”
I suppose you could say that Nephi’s statement of equality refers only to God’s openness about who may “come unto him.” Maybe it means only that all are equally free to join his church. But if that is so, then we can hardly take it as a general statement about “bias related to race, nationality, political affiliation, religion, etc.” In this case it could simply mean that, as long as everyone remains free to choose Christ, then separate drinking fountains and whites-only lunch counters are just fine.
Anyway, to me the most obvious response to all this is that these contradictory notions *can’t* be reconciled and are best explained simply as changes in Joseph’s ever-evolving beliefs, rather than as eternal truths.
— OK
It was a mistake by a prophet and a good example of the fallibility of prophets.
But they don't want to undermine their authority, so church leadership won't come out and say it.
I don't think Jeff will publicly state that, however, even though he might think it.
Lets take 2 Nephi 26:33 in its complete context:
"For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."
According to you, black and white, bond and free represent a nice antebellum parallel with black equating to bond and white equating to free. Let's walk this dog a little bit further. That would also mean that black = bond = male and white = free = female. While some of us may feel like the male half of the species are indeed in bondage, I would wager a bet that this is not the case nor does it make sense to read the verse in this way.
A reading of the verse that makes more sense is to consider the wording as opposites or at the ends of a spectrum. Black being at one end and white at the other and everything included in between. Likewise for the bond and free and for the male and female. This reading is less clumsy then trying to shoe horn a parallelism that doesn't exist in this case.
But, if you were already inclined to interpret a reading that fits your bias then you would probably disagree.
Steve
Good point, Steve. Pretty obvious once you look at the larger context, laying bare, once again, OK's ends-oriented approach: trash LDS scripture and the LDS church, no matter what.
Steve, Anon 6:18, have you even *considered* the possibility that Joseph simply took the familiar New Testament phrase — “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female” — and substituted black/white for Jew/Greek? That would make perfect sense for a 19th-century American writer for whom black and white were far more meaningful social categories than Jew and Greek.
As for Steve’s objection that it makes no sense to parallel maleness with bondage, please take that up with the Apostle Paul, not me.
If you guys really want to make the case that this transparently modern text is actually ancient you’ll have to try harder than this.
— OK
I think one might have a more difficult time squaring your claims, Jeff, to the BoM to itself:
“and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile."
Alma 3
“6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
7 And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.
9 And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.”
2 Nephi 5
20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence.
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.
Jacob 3
3 But, wo, wo, unto you that are not pure in heart, that are filthy this day before God; for except ye repent the land is cursed for your sakes; and the Lamanites, which are not filthy like unto you, nevertheless they are cursed with a sore cursing, shall scourge you even unto destruction.
4 And the time speedily cometh, that except ye repent they shall possess the land of your inheritance, and the Lord God will lead away the righteous out from among you.
5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you”
Alma 23
18 And they began to be a very industrious people; yea, and they were friendly with the Nephites; therefore, they did open a correspondence with them, and the curse of God did no more follow them.
3 Nephi 2
“14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites;
15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;
16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. And thus ended the thirteenth year.”
The BoM makes a clear connection between dark skin and God’s curse. Although “he denieth none that come unto him,” those with dark skin are marked as wicked and cursed. A symbol of their acceptance once they have “come unto him” is that they turn the right color.
Hey guys, thanks for the comments. OK, you always liven things up a bit and make some interesting comments as you pursue your sad goal of tearing down the Church. I hope you'll grow past that some day. But thank you for your remarks that challenge us to reconsider a few things. But the Book of Mormon is ancient, miraculous, and authentic, with more evidence than ever that calls for respect.
OK, please remember that even with the painful restriction on the priesthood, it was still clear that the blessings of forgiveness, salvation, and eternal life was available to all, regardless of race or gender. This broad claim involves the work for the dead and the idea of ongoing ministry initiated by Christ among those who dead to give the whole world the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel. Don't forget this crucial part of our faith.
The opportunity/responsibility involved with the Priesthood has long had limitations of various kinds. Originally it was just Jewish men of the tribe of Levi. Did that mean God didn't love the tribe of Reuben as much, or didn't love the Gentiles? Since 1978, we are past whatever lead to the policy that limited the priesthood based on ancestry (not skin color per se), but it's still limited based on gender. Some see that as unfair, but in our theology it does not mean that God loves women less than men or that the blessings of salvation and eternal life are not open to all of us.
Anon at 12:25, are you familiar with the analysis from Ethan Sproat regarding what Alma 3 is actually telling us? It's an important topic that we need to discuss further soon. Out of time tonight, but Ethan Sproat's work needs further attention. His analysis brings a greater unity to the Book of Mormon and a more intelligent reading. Give it some thought and let's discuss later.
Thanks for pointing me to Sproat. His read was entertaining, if extremely misguided. I especially enjoy how he calls the most sensible reading of the text a “traditional” reading, as if it is old and outdated.
“the assertion that the text of the Book of Mormon describes a literal change in flesh pigmentation lacks any explicit internal textual support”
Yeah, if you ignore that the text mentions that the trait is heritable.
2 Nephi 5
“23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing.”
Alma 3
“8 And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix.”
More to follow. . .
Sproat’s assertion also ignores much connotation regarding skin color and the understanding of what a Lamanite is/was. It is and was understood that the Lamanites were [the principal] among the ancestors of the American Indians. When missionaries were called to preach to Native Americans, they were called to preach to the Lamanites, whose skin color is definitely not white. Note this “revelation” from the D&C which specifically equates Native Americans with Lamanites:
“8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them”
Keep in mind also that besides skin color, the BoM seeks to provide source reasoning for traditional “Lamanitish” practices such as burying the hatchet and scalping. Skin color is textually and contextually not on an island.
Sproat claims that “Alma 3, . . . contains the Book of Mormon’s most thorough explanation of the Lamanite curse and the curse’s relationship to skins.” It could be easily argued that 2 Nephi 5 contains a more thorough explanation of the curse and its relationship to skin color. This chapter also indicates that the curse was physical, not symbolic, and not just limited to skin color:
“24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.”
Another problem with this passage:
“Skousen’s comparison of Enos 1:20; Alma 43:20; and 3 Nephi 4:7 would appear to suggest that when the text of the Book of Mormon describes ‘a skin of blackness’ in 2 Nephi 5:21, it is referring to something made of animal skin”
What he fails to show is a textual basis to support this assertion. According to BoM chronology, 2 Nephi occurred many years before Alma—Nephi can’t be referring to Alma because it hadn’t happened yet. Interestingly, Sproat’s footnote at the end of the quote proceeds to throw Skousens’ other scholarship under the bus because it doesn’t agree with his “non-traditional” reading (cynics may be tempted to call it an “inspred” reading).
Another great erroneous leap is this:
“the mark of the Lamanite curse would seem to be self-administered, removable, and inherited”
It would only seem this way if one ignores the text. The curse is portrayed as a forced punishment from God:
“the mark which was set upon their fathers”
“the Lord God set a mark upon them”
“he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity”
“the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them”
Its removal is also described as involuntary:
“And their curse was taken from them and their skin became white”
I like that he points out an inconsistency in the narrative of the BoM and tries to use that as proof of his point of view. In speaking of a trick played on one military leader on another in Alma 55 he notes:
“If flesh pigmentation were the cultural determiner in this narrative, then the mission should fail right when the Lamanite guards see Laman’s Nephite companions—who, traditional racial interpretations suggest, supposedly have paler flesh pigmentation than the Lamanites. Instead, the ruse succeeds based on how Laman speaks to the Lamanite guards (Alma 55:9)—not on how Laman looks.”
Thanks Sproat for pointing out that inconsistency.
What’s ultimately missing in Sproat’s argument is ironically, what’s missing. He tries to make a convincing case that skin can be interpreted as a vestment which can have metaphoric and symbolic significance to righteousness. He even goes so far as to claim that it is a practical temple garment. What he fails to show, and doesn’t acknowledge, is there is no reference to Nephites wearing skins as a garment. If the “skin of darkness” is a symbolic sullying of traditional garb, why are the Lamanites the only ones portrayed as wearing this garb?
Sproat expects us to torture the reading of one passage that mentions Lamanites wearing animal skins as loincloths, and conflate that with a later description of Lamanite skin color and the reason provided for it being that way. This one unreasonable conflation results in 29 pages of horrible apologetic drivel.
Yes, Jeff, in ancient Israel the priesthood was open only to male Levites. But then again the ancient Israelites never made egalitarian claims to the contrary.
It’s always comical to read obfuscations like “whatever led to the policy that limited the priesthood.” Gee, whatever could it have been? It’s not that big a mystery, Jeff. Any number of Church officials, including prophets themselves, explained it again and again and again: it was because black people inherited the Mark of Cain via the Curse of Ham and because they were neutral in the War in Heaven. Now that such explanations are seen even by the Church itself as obviously racist pretexts, these earlier prophets, seers, and revelators have been thrown under the bus and we’re all supposed to believe it’s just an inscrutable mystery. That’s just silly: it was racism dressed up as divine revelation. Everyone knows it. In your heart of hearts you know it, too.
It was a great example of this thing called “sin.” In a truly Christian church, the leadership would own up to it, apologize for it, and move on. But the LDS brass just can’t seem to do that, so they continue to pin the responsibility on God instead.
— OK
Good job OK. It looks you struck one of Jeff's nerve. Unable to honor his covenants to be honest with his fellow man he lost his temper. It is abundantly obvious the reason for the priesthood ban, but to Jeff acknowledging reality is "tearing down the church". Such equation exposes his belief that the Church is not true. For Jeff it is merely his social club that needs more members to increase its power. Official LDS doctrine of a global flood is embarrassing and hurts his goal of more converts, so he has no problem rejecting it and call himself LDS at the same time. Acknowledging the patently obvious racist priesthood ban hurts the potential for converts, so abuse anyone who has the courage to acknowledge it. Jeff's cold calculated strategy of hating truth tellers such as OK.
How did that world wide Covid-19 fast go? Is it time for another one?
Anon @8:23, you must live in a very peaceful part of the world if losing one's temper means thanking somebody for their remarks, in spite of disagreeing with them. Curious to know which tranquil village you're living in. But from my culture, no, I don't think I lost my temper. If I had, I might have said something stronger or just deleted OK's barb. But he remains welcome here, in spite of my apparently volatile temper when others disagree. Guess I need to chill out in your part of the world — perhaps somewhere on the tundra of north-easteern Manitoba?
For the person who posted many critiques of Sproat, step back and ask if you've considered his thesis and the Book of Mormon text fairly, or are using your assumed knowledge of what it must be to attack the evidence he presents? When you declare that the story in Alma 55 is an "inconsistency" rather than evidence from the text itself about the nature of the Lamanites, this conclusion of yours is simply because Alma 55 does not fit your presupposition about what is meant by "Lamanites" in the text. So you discard the evidence as an "inconsistency."
The more reasonable and open-minded approach is to consider the text as a whole and give it a chance to tell us its story, rather than forcing your story upon it. The story in Alma 55 suggests that Lamanites and Nephites could look pretty much the same, but had very different accents.
Alma 55 tells of Moroni trying to take back captured prisoners. To do so, he sends a Lamanite found among his men to lead a group of his men to the city where prisoners of war are being held, and to trick the guards there into getting drunk. It's a very clever ploy that sounds like something straight out of The Art of War or the Romance of the Three Kingdoms (not that I am suggesting that Joseph "plagiarized" from ancient Chinese writings):
[2] And he said: Behold, I will not exchange prisoners with Ammoron save he will withdraw his purpose, as I have stated in my epistle; for I will not grant unto him that he shall have any more power than what he hath got.
[3] Behold, I know the place where the Lamanites do guard my people whom they have taken prisoners; and as Ammoron would not grant unto me mine epistle, behold, I will give unto him according to my words; yea, I will seek death among them until they shall sue for peace.
[4] And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words, he caused that a search should be made among his men, that perhaps he might find a man who was a descendant of Laman among them.
[5] And it came to pass that they found one, whose name was Laman; and he was one of the servants of the king who was murdered by Amalickiah.
[6] Now Moroni caused that Laman and a small number of his men should go forth unto the guards who were over the Nephites.
[7] Now the Nephites were guarded in the city of Gid; therefore Moroni appointed Laman and caused that a small number of men should go with him.
[8] And when it was evening Laman went to the guards who were over the Nephites, and behold, they saw him coming and they hailed him; but he saith unto them: Fear not; behold, I am a Lamanite. Behold, we have escaped from the Nephites, and they sleep; and behold we have taken of their wine and brought with us.
[9] Now when the Lamanites heard these words they received him with joy; and they said unto him: Give us of your wine, that we may drink; we are glad that ye have thus taken wine with you for we are weary.
[10] But Laman said unto them: Let us keep of our wine till we go against the Nephites to battle. But this saying only made them more desirous to drink of the wine;
[11] For, said they: We are weary, therefore let us take of the wine, and by and by we shall receive wine for our rations, which will strengthen us to go against the Nephites.
[12] And Laman said unto them: You may do according to your desires.
“ask if you've considered his thesis and the Book of Mormon text fairly, or are using your assumed knowledge of what it must be to attack the evidence he presents? When you declare that the story in Alma 55 is an "inconsistency" rather than evidence from the text itself about the nature of the Lamanites”
I have considered his thesis fairly and enumerated several reasons why it is hogwash. Because it is hogwash, the story in Alma 55 cannot support it.
This story seems to be an inconsistency based on what I know about the text and its origins. There may be some other explanation within the text that I am unaware of which could demonstrate how two visibly different races could mistake one for another, but I have yet to see it. Care to pull it out of your hat? Otherwise, this seems to be an inconsistency in the narrative—someone forgot about the cursed skins.
Continuing from Alma 55:
[13] And it came to pass that they did take of the wine freely; and it was pleasant to their taste, therefore they took of it more freely; and it was strong, having been prepared in its strength.
[14] And it came to pass they did drink and were merry, and by and by they were all drunken.
[15] And now when Laman and his men saw that they were all drunken, and were in a deep sleep, they returned to Moroni and told him all the things that had happened.
[16] And now this was according to the design of Moroni. And Moroni had prepared his men with weapons of war; and he went to the city Gid, while the Lamanites were in a deep sleep and drunken, and cast in weapons of war unto the prisoners, insomuch that they were all armed;
[17] Yea, even to their women, and all those of their children, as many as were able to use a weapon of war, when Moroni had armed all those prisoners; and all those things were done in a profound silence.
[18] But had they awakened the Lamanites, behold they were drunken and the Nephites could have slain them.
[19] But behold, this was not the desire of Moroni; he did not delight in murder or bloodshed, but he delighted in the saving of his people from destruction; and for this cause he might not bring upon him injustice, he would not fall upon the Lamanites and destroy them in their drunkenness.
[20] But he had obtained his desires; for he had armed those prisoners of the Nephites who were within the wall of the city, and had given them power to gain possession of those parts which were within the walls.
[21] And then he caused the men who were with him to withdraw a pace from them, and surround the armies of the Lamanites.
[22] Now behold this was done in the night-time, so that when the Lamanites awoke in the morning they beheld that they were surrounded by the Nephites without, and that their prisoners were armed within.
[23] And thus they saw that the Nephites had power over them; and in these circumstances they found that it was not expedient that they should fight with the Nephites; therefore their chief captains demanded their weapons of war, and they brought them forth and cast them at the feet of the Nephites, pleading for mercy.
[24] Now behold, this was the desire of Moroni. He took them prisoners of war, and took possession of the city, and caused that all the prisoners should be liberated, who were Nephites; and they did join the army of Moroni, and were a great strength to his army.
Yes, it was evening, but the guards could see them coming, and the men had to get very close to turn over the wine to the guards. There had to be light from the evening sun or from torches. The Lamanite guards never noticed that the men accompanying the Lamanite speaker were Nephites.
“There had to be light from the evening sun or from torches. The Lamanite guards never noticed that the men accompanying the Lamanite speaker were Nephites.”
Precisely. And based on what we know about the curse from multiple mentions (ie : this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren), we have an unexplained inconsistency in the narrative.
But your criticisms raise fair questions. For now let me address the issue of whether Nephi's wording should have any relationship to Alma's. Let's first look at the introduction of Sproat's argument, pp. 139-141:
{Begin quote}
Alma 3:5–6 is comprised of two sentences, in each of which the word skin(s) appears. Commentaries handle the two sentences in one of three ways: (1) by treating both of them independently, as if two very different things were at issue; (2) by commenting on only the second of the two sentences, remaining silent about the first; or (3) by failing to comment on either sentence. All three of these approaches miss the fact that, when read in context, the use of skins in the second sentence appears to form part of a historical explanation of the use of skin in the first sentence. Here is the text:
Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth. And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. (Alma 3:5–6)
According to a reading I will defend in the course of this article, this passage suggests the possibility that "the skins of the Lamanites" are to be understood as articles of clothing, the notable girdle of skin that these particular Lamanites wear to cover their nakedness. Significantly, these are the only two references to skins in Alma 3, which contains the Book of Mormon's most thorough explanation of the Lamanite curse and the curse's relationship to skins. Thus situated, Alma 3:5–6 might serve as an interpretive Rosetta stone. If both instances of skins in Alma 3:5–6 refer to clothing, then the other five references to various-colored or cursed skins in the Book of Mormon could also refer to clothing and not—as traditionally assumed—to human flesh pigmentation.
Such a nontraditional interpretation garners additional support from the critical textual work of Royal Skousen. In his nigh-exhaustive Analysis of Textual Variants of the Book of Mormon, Skousen claims that the Book of Mormon uses the indefinite article a with the singular skin to refer to animal skins. Skousen specifically points to the use of the indefinite article a in Enos 1:20 ("a short skin"), Alma 43:20 ("a skin"), and 3 Nephi 4:7 ("a lamb-skin"). Intriguingly, this same syntactical pattern also holds true in the KJV, in which the only passages using the indefinite article a with skin are unambiguous references to clothing (see Leviticus 13:48, 51; Mark 1:6). However, Skousen fails to note that other than those three Book of Mormon passages he cites, the only other instance of the indefinite article a preceding skin in the Book of Mormon appears in 2 Nephi 5:21 in which "the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon [the Lamanites]." Skousen's comparison of Enos 1:20; Alma 43:20; and 3 Nephi 4:7 would appear to suggest that when the text of the Book of Mormon describes "a skin of blackness" in 2 Nephi 5:21, it is referring to something made of animal skin.
{continued…}
{continuing quote from Sproat}
In light of these textual observations, I find myself asking a beguilingly simple question: what might be discovered if we follow the contextual lead of Alma 3:5–6—and the syntactical hint in 2 Nephi 5:21—and assume that the other four references to various-colored or cursed skins in the Book of Mormon narrative also refer to certain types of clothing made of animal skin and not to flesh pigmentation at all? It turns out we can discover quite a bit. In this article, I will argue that if the various-colored skins in the Book of Mormon can be understood coherently as certain types of clothing, then two other interpretive observations follow. First, the various-colored skins in the Book of Mormon can be interpreted as a type of garment associated with the Nephite temple. Second, the mark of the Lamanite curse would seem to be self-administered, removable, and inherited in the same way that covenantal vestments in the KJV are self-administered, removable, and inherited.
{end quote}
The question you ask is whether Nephi's wording would be guided by Alma's usage of terminology since Alma came later. Fair question.
One thing to note about the Book of Mormon is the remarkable consistency in its language. Different writers have distinct styles and may use different words (Alma, for example, uses "state" a lot compared to everyone else and Jacob writes with much more emphasis on feelings and the human heart, and Mormon, of course, is keenly interested in military details and often draws moral lessons from events with "and thus we see"), but many formulas persist across generations and the many commonalities in language unite the text. The unity of the text, in spite of clear differences in style and voice between writers, can come from several sources. For those who reject the Book of Mormon, you can say it's all Joseph Smith and the differences in voice and style are just his effort to fake different voices and styles. But if we give the text a chance with an open mind, if we consider the possibility that this might be a real ancient record, then the unity in the usage of many terms may be due to:
(1) unity in the original ancient sources of the text that comes from (a) writers using a common language and scribal techniques passed on from father to son or one writer to another and/or (b) familiarity with and reliance on the foundational scriptural writings of the Nephites, including the brass plates and the writings of previous Nephite writers,
(2) unity in redacted text provided by Mormon and Moroni in their efforts, conscious or otherwise, to unify and clarify the edited record,
(3) unity in the English translation either (a) as revealed to Joseph Smith or (b) based on Joseph's choice of wording or rewording in response to whatever he saw or received in the divine translation process and (relatively minor) subsequent editorial work.
So there's no need to assume that Sproat's argument relies on Nephi being magically influenced by Alma's terminology. At most, it assumes that there is a unity in the text either from the influence of Hebrew, of scribal practices and norms, of later Nephite editorial work, or of the translation work into English. In any case, assuming consistency in the text is the most reasonable approach to understand its intricacies and to decode its clues about meaning. Sproat is stepping back from the assumptions we have been imposing on the text for decades and asking what the text might actually be telling us. It's a fair approach with a surprising tentative conclusion.