In the comments for my recent post recommending low standards (or expectations of others) for better happiness in the Church, Papa D offered an interesting insight. I’ll quote part of it:
To the point of lower (or, for me, more realistic) standards being the key to happiness, I think it’s interesting that those who argue a “confess-only-and-be-saved” position basically are employing the lowest PRACTICAL standard for themselves possible to define salvation. Of course, everyone who argues it will say that relying totally on Christ and de-valuing our own actions is the highest form of worship and trust in Him – but, from a purely practical standpoint, it really is the lowest possible standard for their own actions.
On the flip side, those who argue a “personal-works-only-earn-salvation” position do the exact same thing – but with an opposite focus. They use the lowest possible standard for Jesus’ actions and the highest standard for their own. **Both are extremist positions.**
Both bring a form of happiness (complacency), imo – since they are simple and give no real reason for what I believe to be “true” repentance. I see repentance as the result of a perceptual balance, that makes it harder to simplify into one fairly brainless formula, that leads to a degree of angst and concern and contemplation, that leads to self-reflection and effort to change – which is the definition of repentance.
I like his perspective. Believing that salvation comes from keeping a list of rules, with a focus on outward behavior, has a similar flaw to believing that God’s rules don’t require zealous effort on our part. Both reflect low expectations, as Papa D said.
I believe a correct reading of the scriptures recognizes that our relationship with God really matters, and that relationship must be a covenant relationship, one that accepts His grace and the power of the free gift of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in a very serious covenant that includes conditions for our access to that gift. Keeping mere outward ordinances and rules is not the key to a healthy relationship with God, nor is merely believing in our heart. God wants us to be servants and friends, followers of Him who give this covenant relationship all that we can, serving Him with our strength as well as with our heart and mind. What we do matters, what we think and feel matters, who we are and who we seek to become matters.
There is a yoke to pull and a burden to bear. There is work to be done and tasks to be completed in our mortal journey with God. Christ invites us to hitch ourselves to His team and pull with all our might, but assures us that His burden is light and His yoke is easy (Matthew 11:30). And it is. Keeping His commandments is so much less painful than sinning, and having the joy and support that the Spirit of God brings to our lives makes the path back toward Him much more bearable even in the midst of mortal pains than the path down toward sorrow.
God is not interested in just handing us a harp and saying “you’re saved.” He wants us to progress and “become perfect, even as [our] Father in Heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). We are His sons and daughters and He calls us follow the path of “godliness” and to “put on the divine nature” and become more like Him (2 Peter 1:3-4). It is a journey that we must continue to the end (Matthew 24:13), not a single step in one moment of yearning.
In working with us on this journey, Christ may tailor His demands upon us to help us overcome our own personal barriers between us and Him, just as He did for the young rich man who had been keeping the commandments, but was letting his love of wealth stand between him and God. In Matthew 19, when Christ told him that “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,” things looked great for that young man for he had been doing so. But in spite of good outward observation of the rules of God, the relationship with God was flawed because of what was in his heart. There was one thing he lacked, and to overcome that barrier, the precise prescription for him (not necessarily all of us) was to sell what he had and follow Christ.
Building a relationship with God requires that we come to know Him. It also means that we know ourselves through regular introspection and examining our status before God, repenting constantly to remove what is flawed and seeking daily to better emulate the Savior. With this process in mind, we can understand why Paul, the great teacher of grace, would exhort his audiences to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12), to “press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:14), to view our journey toward salvation as a race that we must run with patience and complete to win the prize (1 Corinthians 9:23-25; Heb. 12:1), to examine ourselves lest we partake of the sacrament (communion) unworthily (Acts 11:27-30), and to be concerned about the dangers of falling from grace (1 Cor. 10:12; Heb. 2:1). This is why Paul would say that “we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” (Heb. 3:14) and why Paul would say that God offers eternal life to those “who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality” (Romans 2:7).
Eternal life, the fruit of the heavenly tree of life, is all about the grace of Jesus Christ, but as we are reminded in the closing words of the Bible, “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life” (Rev. 22:14)–in other words, following Christ and keeping His commandments is a necessary condition in our covenant relationship with Him for us to gain access to the fruits of grace.
Reaching the tree of life is a journey of many steps, not just one. Consider again the context of Peter’s statement on putting on the divine nature, and observe how he describes this journey and its relationship to the goal of having our calling and election made sure:
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall….
We must be diligent on this journey as we pull Christ’s yoke and bear His burden, but He blesses us and gives us joy and support as we seek to serve Him with all our heart, might, mind, and strength. He does the miraculous work of freeing us from sin and death, but since His goal is shaping us in a two-way covenant relationship to become true saints and God’s sons and daughters in His kingdom, He asks us to do something that requires merely all we have and all we are, namely, to follow Him.
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That is really beautiful. Thank you for sharing. It really helped to lift my spirit and shift my focus.
Thank you – I needed that reminder today.
The LDS perspective on grace and works makes so much sense. It does justice to the covenantal framework of the Bible and is the clearest way to harmonize the full body of scripture.
Jeff,
The only real thing that is offensive to what Christians believe is your reference to harps. That is not a valid representation.
Okay, besides that, I will have to say that you did well with this article. I have just read a book called "Not A Fan." The author differentiates between a "fan" of Jesus and a "follower." Jesus tells us to take up our cross daily, which means that the life for a follower will be fraught with what you say to "a yoke to pull and a burden to bear."
I think you're right on with regard to a covenant relationship. I still hope that one day you will understand what true grace is all about. We are saved by grace and not by works, so that no one can boast. That's what Paul said, anyway. Living a life that reflects a follower as opposed to a fan is not the same as obedience to earn salvation. Salvation is a gift to those who believe, which is what the New Testament repeats throughout.
Peace…
Excellent post!!!
If jackg actually read it, he certainly did NOT understand it.
He is still stuck on the old works vs grace anti-Mormon mime.
Tis sad to behold.
GB,
In the past, I would have responded to your comment with a bit of an attitude. Alas, such comments aren't bothering me as much. It's okay that you have your opinion. I'm completely okay with where I stand in my beliefs, just as you are.
To all,
Even though I do not believe the LDS Church to be the only true church on the earth that one needs to join in order to be saved (and, I used to believe this), I no longer hold to the stringent position that Mormons are going to hell because of what others perceive to be heretical teachings. I still think the LDS Church teaches things about Jesus that aren't right, but I know lots of LDS whose hearts are pure and clean, and who are striving to follow the same Christ as I follow. I have nothing against obedience, which is part of the covenant relationship Jeff talks about. Even though I believe we are justified by faith, I also believe that works will follow–but not because I fear hell, but because I want to obey God. So, maybe we are talking about the same thing after all. I just wanted to let you all know where I currently stand. I hope our debates are healthy and respectful, which is how I want to be from my end.
Peace…
Hi jackg,
Thanks for clarifying your statement. I think you nicely summed up what the Church teaches that grace and obedience go hand in hand.
Cheers,
Steve
Anonymous,
Unfortunately, too many people who call themselves Christians think obedience is a bad word. Sometimes, people will say, "We all fall short of the glory of God" as if missing the mark is something we shouldn't be concerned with. Obedience is a beautiful thing with awesome results. Right off the bat in Genesis, God said: "Let there be light" or whatever it was He was creating. Please bear with me as I make my point of obedience from the perspective of "ex nihilo." It is not my purpose to argue this point. What I want to say is that nothingness became matter at the creative power of God's spoken words and immediately obeyed. (I know I differ in this than LDS teachings.) The point is that light became light and God saw that "it was good." Whenever we obey God, we will live the life He intended for us, and it will be good. Obedience is a beautiful thing.
Anyway, that's about it for now.
Peace…
"ex nihilo" (or not) is irrelevant to your point being valid.
Or put another way.
Your point is valid independent of "ex hihilo".
This post just won the "My Favorite Post" award. Finally, the LDS balancing of works and grace has been penned in a way that I agree with 100%.
This post exemplifies why this big discussion we are having on the Net is so important. From Jack to Papa D we refine eachother's understanding of truth. Thanks to all.
Hi Jackg,
A little golf clap from me for your last couple of posts. I think you nailed a couple of things. I especially like the part about pure hearts. I would only add that there are many people of all differents faiths that fall in the same catagory. Luckily for all of us that's what God seems to be concerned with the most, our heart in the right place. I think no matter where you stand on doctrine, we'll all have our share of aha moments on the other side. Stuff like ex-nihilio or not aren't as important as obedience. God knows our hearts and how to sort everything out in the end. 🙂
but not because I fear hell, but because I want to obey God
I would only add, for me personally, I don't do things to seek my own glory or to try and add to the work Christ did, but because I want to obey God. I think we do have many similar beliefs, different terminology. I have tried to point this out to many people before but it falls on blind eyes, I was going to say deaf ears but I think internet blogging kind of changes the saying a bit. Another interesting thought came to mind, after reading something you said about baptism on another article. For us baptism is part of our covenant relationship with God. It is preached about in the bible and many were baptized. I don't believe Christ did things in his short life that were of no importance to us. Following in his footsteps we belive we need to be baptized as a step to the remission of our sins as well as entering into a covenant that will will do our best to not sin anymore.
What I want to say is that nothingness became matter at the creative power of God's spoken words and immediately obeyed.
That also could be said, unorganized matter immediatly obeyed and became what it was commanded by the creator to become. We are finding, through our science endevours, that the building blocks for life are scattered throughout the cosmos. It makes much more sense to me, in light of this new discovery, that someone, God, could take of already exsisting materials and put them together in their proper form to bring about life. The more we learn about the universe, the more we see how well organized it is to support life. There is a reason for that, as it was created for that very purpose.
The best explanation I have ever read that can explain how faith without works is dead and yet it is the grace that saves us not our works is written in a book called “Believing Christ”. The author’s last name I think is Christenson, I think not sure. It has been some time since I read the book.
He gave an example of when his little girl wanted a bike really bad, but as a young family finances were tight, so he told her. “If you save all your money then one day you will have saved enough to buy a bike”. So after several weeks of diligently doing chores and saving her money she brought her jar of coins to him and asked if they could go to the store and look at the bikes. Once there she quickly found the beautiful pink bike with the streamers on the ends of the handle bars that she so wanted. But once she saw the price tag on the end of the string she realized that she was no where close to having saved enough money to pay for the bike. tears started to boil up in the corner of her little eyes. Now her father never lied to her, it was true that if she saved all her money she one day could save enough to get the bike, but by that time she would be more interested in a car than a bike. So her father asked her just how much money she had. Looking at the jar she said that she had about 6 dollars and 50 cents. So her father told her “I tell you what, you give me the jar and a big hug and a kiss and the bike is yours”.
I think the story ended with the father driving real slow along the side of the road following his little girl as she rode her new bike home.
We can never do enough good works to qualify to live in Gods presence again. But if we prove to him that to live with him is all we really want when we leave this world and we are willing to give him a jar filled with our very best yet much lacking effort then he will make up the rest. But to assume that we can one day accept Jesus and we are saved, therefore we can go about our daily lives much the same as we always have (and there are countless numbers of us that fall within this category) then I would fear hearing the words “I never knew you, depart from me”.
I realize that no one wants to stand in judgment of another person, but without trying to pass judgment, but rather explaining from the Bible how it works what are my chances?
I’m not much different than the average guy. I like sports, going to the bar with friends for a few drinks. I’m good to my wife and kids. Not much for going to church, would rather watch a good game, although I do believe in God and all that stuff. I do a good days work for my pay. I don’t make a lot so there isn’t a lot to go around so I don’t give that often to the church. I live by the philosophy, that if you leave me alone I will leave you alone. Other than a few tickets, I don’t break the law. And I help my neighbor when I can.
So with this type of resume, what would be your best guess as to the chances of me going to Heaven, or suffering the torment of the other side? And Why? Would I even be happy in Heaven? If Heaven is worshiping God all the time, then it would just be 7 days of going to church and right now there are very few people that want to spend any more than one hour at church let alone 7 days a week. Sounds like to me the only reason for wanting to go to heaven is just so you’re not suffering in hell. If there were a third option, a place where your not burning in torment, but also not sitting in praise of God all day long. A place where you can just continue being very much the same as you are here, just living out your life doing what you want to do. I think most of us would opt for that rather than either of the other two.
I believe a correct reading of the scriptures recognizes that our relationship with God really matters, and that relationship must be a covenant relationship, one that accepts His grace and the power of the free gift of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in a very serious covenant that includes conditions for our access to that gift.
This is a wonderful and heart felt though and motivated by a desire to truly love the Savior I'm sure. But if there are conditions that we must complete before having access to the gift of the forgiveness of our sins, then what is the standard upon which they are given? How much does God ask before He offers us the complete gift? Through our progression must we become perfect before the free gift is ours?
When I was an Evvie, this faith vs. works debate was so important to me. I was a faith alone type, and I knew how amazing it could be. I'd prop it up with the standard bible verses, the expert authors on the subject, and i knew firsthand how much it can change–for the better–the people who believed in this doctrine.
Their standard was "Christ died for me, and the least I could do is serve a mission", or something along those lines.
And every time I debated this doctrine over at MRM, some Mormon could do the exact same thing.
But here's something I think isn't included in the debate, but maybe shapes the thinking in some ways: Evvies like jackg believe in Hell; Mormons are borderline Universalists.
When I was an Evvie, I had to confront the idea that a TON of people were going to Hell. Mormons were going to Hell, some of my friends were going to Hell, etc., etc. And when confronting this…doctrine of condemnation, faith alone made Jesus seem that much greater. The only condition was faith, and God could take it from there.
Works are scary. Why would we have to do something so mundane just to be with Christ? Why would He do that to us? Because to us, salvation is the difference between heaven and hell. We dont get a lesser Heaven, we get an eternity away from God's glory.
I'm not a believer any more, but I remember that perspective like no other. I don't know how much it influenced me, because I tried to see where Mormons were coming from with this debate. In fact, I remember most that I stopped joining this debate because it goes absolutely nowhere.
The bible is just too open to interpretation in some parts.
Sort of like the Spirit.
Anonymous said:
I’m not much different than the average guy. I like sports, going to the bar with friends for a few drinks. I’m good to my wife and kids. Not much for going to church, would rather watch a good game, although I do believe in God and all that stuff. I do a good days work for my pay. I don’t make a lot so there isn’t a lot to go around so I don’t give that often to the church. I live by the philosophy, that if you leave me alone I will leave you alone. Other than a few tickets, I don’t break the law. And I help my neighbor when I can.
So with this type of resume, what would be your best guess as to the chances of me going to Heaven, or suffering the torment of the other side? And Why? Would I even be happy in Heaven?
Hard to say just from those factors. You need more than good intentions, of course. And if you're truly helping other people, that's probably the best sign. It comes down to the difference between being selfish and selfless. And unless you're doing some bad things, that's pretty hard for others to discern.
I would also ask: do you treat people well? People in your family, children, strangers? Are they better for knowing you?
The scriptures say that we can each know for our own selves whether we're meeting the conditions God has set, simply through our attitude and desire. If it's what you really want, you'll make it a top priority and not let anything else get in your way of that goal. The way is set. It's there for us if we want it.
The reason we would ultimately want to live with God is that God is perfect love. The most joyous times on Earth are when we feel the most love, both giving and receiving.
As for the balance between grace and works, people seem to attach some kind of saving value to works simply because they are an essential component of salvation. There's a fine distinction here. Christ is the only one with the ability to save us. There's nothing we can do to save ourselves, but we can accept His gift and follow Him through obedience. The works, though, have absolutely no value in the absence His saving grace. Grace, however, still has ultimate value even in the absence of anyone's works.
Another way to look at it is that none of us can ever "earn" salvation. It is something that is granted to us if we abide by the conditions.